Gary, also I don't know what neush means, or neush V. I just guessed you meant "inital V."

I use *F for the V sound, in the middle or at the end of words and phrases. (did you have, selective, save, you've, would you ever)

I use -F for the F sound and S sounds, in the middle or at the end of words and phrases. (safe, life, laughing, missing, tracing)

Gary, if there "are others who say [I] will agree with anything anyone 'says'," those others don't know me very well. :)

Gary,
I have a long history of forum postings and I don't think you will find one that bashed you or anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact, I remember praising your answer you gave on theories to someone on the CRF as one of the best most detailed responses on the subject I had ever read.

I have complimented other ideas you have presented as well.

I questioned you when I thought you were making a simple stroke more difficult than it had to be.

I did say Mark would probably say any possible keystoke is possible. Not that he would agree to anything! Although, upon typing that, I am remembering Mark's recent karaoke performance at TCRA and thinking, hmmmm, perhaps he would!

As I said in several other threads, if it works for you, that's all that really matters!!

I wasn't able to read everything, but from the little that I did read, I just want to say this, whatever works for you, use it. If it doesn't work for you, don't use it...Give a suggestion, and if one takes it, bravo, if not, bravo. Going around in circles is not going to change anyone's mind. My philosophy, "You do u and I'll do me."

Mark,

You are correct in my use of neush (____)

It is something I've picked up on one or more other forums as posted by one or more other writers; as I don't know who uses what where to describe strokes, I have the bad habit of using it from time to time.

Several years ago, a reporter wrote an article in the JCR about using numbers instead of letters in parts or all of outlines. I did not understand what was written at the time.

Since then, I've seen a little bit of Dennis Steiner's ideas on his own site as well as things posted occasionally by others. One of his ideas involves this replacing letters with numbers, I would think primarily to break conflicts, but also to shorten writing.

His most famous contribution, albeit maybe not original to him, but interesting in the way that he extends it, is the magic S- key (or actually, as he says, the magic any letter key as it can be extended to any letter in concept).

His major example of the magic key is the S- used for un- or en- or in- words/phrases.

My initial theory learned was Stenograph Computer Compatible Stenographic Theory, 3rd ed.

One of the two writers of that theory attended one of your seminars relatively recently and now says your theory works, and he's working parts of your theory into what he does.

Well, CCST advocates using S- for some- in outlines where it makes sense. There are other letters where the same is done, I just don't remember them now.
Same concept, just not as extended, as Steiner's.

Years ago, I looked at SR- for V- and saw some conflicts (actually a lack of clearness) plus a limitation on writing flexibility of certain words.

The first issue that popped to my eye is the possibility of tucking the initial side R- (as is done on the final side for some words). So, looking at the usage on the final side, I realized that the -F could be used several ways, including as a -V. I then looked at the initial side, and asked if using F- as a V- would allow me to tuck the R- whereas SR- would not. I found it works.

I'm not sure if Brenda Rogers posts here, but she recently on Brief Club posted the idea of using F- for V- in the word invoice.

I took several replies to my idea as unworkable, just as easy to write the whole word out, why invent a new letter, uncomfortable, etc., et al.

I don't expect everyone to agree, or even like some of my ideas. Ditto for your ideas, and Steiner's, and my theory's author, etc...

It is one thing to explain an objection one finds; that can be useful. But outright rejection of the idea and attack the author instead is hard to stomach; thankfully, it doesn't happen here very often.

Just a quick question for you, in addition to the above.

There are several ways of connecting word/phrase parts. Most involve some form of a connection stroke.

A young lady in my theory class did very, very well. Her sister had gone to CR school at a proprietary school almost directly across the street from my school. She "pre" taught her younger sister some tricks she used, one of which was using DL-S (delete space) as a connection stroke. Our school owner/director/theory teacher (initially)/occasional instructor wasn't sure if this would work in all cases or long-term (high speed).

What's your take on using DL-S as a connection stroke?

Mark,

I may be understanding the nature of the steno machine keyboard, but I understand it has a limitted number of letters arranged on a keyboard with some on the left (forming the initial or start side of a word, or phrase, or word part), a set of vowels at the bottom of the keyboard, and letters on the left representing the final side or end side of a word, phrase, or word part.

More than one letter can be hit at a time to form more letters, or word parts, or sounds. The concept is similar to a piano; hitting more than one key forms chords.

It is also possible, because of the need to use chords, that a word or word part or phrase may appear to be longer than the actual english equivalent.

Now, in machine steno, a letter (actually a chord) more have more than one letter in it or sound in it.

Hence, TPH- used as N- also has TP- (F-) in it, along with M- in it.

Using this logic, it might be possible to write

in many events

as TPHEFPBTS (or so I would think).

Well, someone asked elsewhere how to write the word significant.

I replied back

TKPWHFBGT - significant, or, TKPWHEUFBGT

TKPWHFBGLT - significantly, or, TKPWH*EUFBGLT
(part of my thinking was also the possibility of adding S- for in- to both outlines, or in the case of (in) significance, dropping the -T and adding -S)

to which I got one reply that GH- is pretty hard to do, and -BGLT would be another difficult combo, just murder.

Added to this was that other ideas were simpler, mine too difficult, too lengthy, and don't make sense.

And, what I suggsted was longer than the actual word (which even if true, does not take into account the idea of needed chording of one or more letters, specifically G- as TKPW- )

One of the above also wrote: (and I did find this quite interesting and helpful, although I don't know if this applies in all cases for all writers, or if it can be eliminated as an argument with things like finger exercises):

The problem with GH is that you're depressing four keys with your ring and middle fingers, meaning half your fingers are going down, and I'll be darned if I can hit that H without dragging the R into it as well. Hitting just GR is easy because you can curl your finger down. GH requires you to both straighten your finger and keep it away from the key immediately below it simultaneously, an uncomfortable fingering for me. And as a pianist for 15 years, if it's uncomfortable for me to do with my most coordinated fingers, it's probably that way for a reason.

This is the same problem with -BLGT, only it's exacerbated because many people do not possess very long pinkies. A general rule of thumb: .|. shapes with fingers, such as -BLGS are not difficult. However, step-ladder shapes, especially going upward in the weaker fingers, are generally much harder because they don't fit the natural shape of the hand, which is to curve downward and in as opposed to downward in one half an upward in the other. That's why I don't like TPWR- for phrasing in the left hand even if it's "doable". It's not comfortable, and not comfortable means it gets worse and worse as speed goes up.

My own feeling is that finger exercises, repetition, practice overcome this type of argument in most cases (and I've seen it presented re: * usage, the way you write tle and dle endings, etc...).

I do understand it's very individualistic; for some, it may be impossible. But the rejections used to me have a different tone.

So, am I correct in my underlying keyboard/chord assumptions?

What do you think of the way I suggested signifcant/significantly.

Monica,

It's normal for me, I know. I did plenty of pogo-stick-style writing when I practiced the Club.

I think you're doing awesome. Keep up the hard work!!

AND . . . keep breathing. :)

I love the pogo-stick analogy. Yes, yes! I do it all the time. I also feel like my fingers are flopping all over the place and I am aimlessly mashing the keyboard. That is how I felt when I first started. It was not comfortable for me at all.

Then what happens is you will get a string of ten words perfectly and then that string turns to 15, 20, 25 and so on. Then you will write 30 seconds perfectly and then that 30 seconds turns into a minute, and so on. Just keep practicing your minimum five minutes a day and you will see the awesome results. It is inevitable.

Mark, Gromit is cute. My dog Sable, loves Gromit's beautiful bed! ;)

Great analogy, Monica!!

Monica,

Your analogy is quite apt IMHO; I agree with Jill.

I'm always wondering why certain things "work," especially when it comes to learning, remembering, motor skill learning and adaptation, etc...

I'm sure there are other reasons that could be cited or given or hypothesised, but yours definetly fits this one.

Excellent analogy, Monica! There's really more to that than you realize. Autistic children don't start out scribbling; they start out with good, solid forms. It's not a good thing, kind of like walking without crawling. A building block is lost. Writing perfectly and dropping . . . the building block of hanging on at all costs is lost.

That is such a good way of looking at it, that I feel it should be stressed in teaching steno, period. Bravo!

It's official!! I passed the Texas CSR!!

I credit my excellent performance on the skills portion to the Magnum Steno Club. It really works!!

THANK YOU, MARK and MSC!
Rebecca Callow TX CSR 8925

Congratulations, Rebecca!!

Woo-hooo, Rebecca!!! Good for you!!

So nice to hear that upbeat determination, Monica. I still can't wait to hear what you say after two weeks at it.

Congratulations, Rebecca!!!

Nice job, Rebecca!!!

Congratulations Rebecca!

Monica,

When struggling to not drop, you don't want to just write "anything." You want to try to get a stroke that at least the shape of your fingers resembles the position their supposed to be in.

Since you've only tried it for a day, I think you'll begin to get better and better. Yes, it is new for you, and you will improve.

Monica, look at it like this: you're a pretty good tennis player, but you get to play a set of tennis against the #1 player in the world. You can't even hit the serve back - WAIT!

I see you've made another post saying you're getting it better! LOL Keep going, and don't give up!!

Gary, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Dennis sure has some good ideas.

To answer your question, what you call a connection stroke, I have called a delete space. If I'm writing realtime and someone says "Mr. Stunpad" I will write STUPB/SP*/PAD, and it will pull the two words together.

DL-S (evoking "delete space") would do the same thing.

I use a "delete space" stroke about once a month or less.

Gary, as to this comment:

"That's why I don't like TPWR- for phrasing in the left hand even if it's "doable". It's not comfortable, and not comfortable means it gets worse and worse as speed goes up."

Try slightly rotating your left hand clockwise a bit (your left wrist would move leftward), for TPWR- and it becomes quite comfortable. At least for me it does.

Gary,

You asked, "So, am I correct in my underlying keyboard/chord assumptions?" Yes, you are.

You asked, "What do you think of the way I suggested signifcant/significantly?"

Answer: I have lots of strokes that are very complicated. However, those complicated strokes tend to be for words that other reporters write in 3 or more strokes, multisyllabic words that take the speaker longer to say. That gives me more time to make the stroke, despite its complexity.

For example, "so that you can have" = STHAO*UFBG. Hard stroke, but it takes a person almost a second to say it, so I have almost a second to write it. Same with "they don't want to have" = TWHO*EFPT.

While I think your method of writing significant, significantly, insignificant is clever (and by all means keep it if it works for you at high speeds) - the word "significant" is said pretty fast and thus I prefer a simple stroke: SEUG = significant, SEULG significantly, and I'm okay with the extra stroke for insigificant EUPB/SEUG. The "in-" takes the speaker longer to say the word, so I can take a bit longer for one more stroke.

That's my thoughts anyway.

Congratulations, Rebecca!!!!! I'm very proud of you, and you must have had a big party!

Vicki, you tell Sable, THANKS!! Love the name Sable.

Folks, Gromit has been reading these posts, and he is quite upset. He asked me to type this:

"It wasn't common knowledge that my owner made me a eunuch; however, you humans should know that that does not change my ... gender. I am still a he."

I have assured him that everyone here is nice and means no disrespect to his manhood - er, boydoghood.

Gromit and I do play chess together. But don't get all excited and think that's something special. It's not - I beat him three out of four, after all.

hehe and add a couple of scratches behind the ears, too :)

Rebecca,
Awesome job!!! Go get 'em now

Mark,
My sincere apologies to you and Gromit!!! As you know, my dog is also named Gromit and is a female. Soon after I posted the comment about Gromit and used "he" I knew I had made a mistake. Please "express" to Gromit my apologies.

Maybe we could set the Gromits up for a game of chess and even up the odds a bit :)

Yes, Kathryn, the moon is made of cheese, and Gromit never talks, but he's the smartest one in the show! lol

Monica, I didn't know Wensleydale was cheese! Was that in the moon episode? Gotta put that in my DICTIONARY.

Christine, Gromit accepts your apologies (none necessary to me!), and he's very interested in your Gromit but he's hoping you won't tell her "his little secret."

To those of you who don't know, there's a wonderful "claymation" (clay + animation) series called "Wallace & Gromit." There are two full length movies of them, and three short (30 min each) movies. They're great. Which is why Christine and I both have dogs named Gromit! (Keep in mind a grommet is something else)

I love Wallace & Gromit! So do my kids. My son, who has very narrow dietary preferences, decided he needed to try Wensleydale cheese. He was probably around 10 or 12. We went up to the local frou-frou store, and he bravely tried it, said he "loved" it . . . but wouldn't taste it again. It's very strong and he really couldn't like it. But he also couldn't say it out loud and be a traitor to W&G.

Wensleydale seems to pop up a lot. It's in the Close Shave episode, when his love interest doesn't care for cheese at the end. "Not even Wensleydale?!?" Poor Wallace was crushed.

Wow! I must try the Wensleydale!!! I love cheese!!

Wow, just hit comment #700!!!

Mark, et al.,

I know the authors of Philadelphia Clinic Theory came up with something they called the "Philadelphia Shift."

I also know that Dennis Steiner came up with something he calls the "Steiner Shift" which may be in essence the same thing as the Philadelphia Shift although maybe developed independantly and with some addtional uses or variations.

In any case, whatever this shift is called or however it is used, I understand that there are 4 different ways of physically doing it.

Do you, Mark, or does anyne else here know what the 4 variations are, how they are actually done (performed), what the advantages/disanvantages of each is?

I believe that you, Mark, use it yourself. How do you do it? Do you use more than one way? Do you have your own unique way?-

Gary, I only know the Philadelphia Shift, -SD. I don't remember what the Steiner Shift is.

Monica, that's an excellent idea!

Magnum Steno Club members,

would you all do me a favor and go into Archive > Speed Building and listen to Oct. 1, 2, 3 videos and see if you have not improved greatly? Aren't those literaries SLOWWWWW??? Report back here at 0900.

Mark,

What are the physical mechanics of hand/fingers you use to do the shift for the -SD

What I'm looking for is how you would describe doing it to someone else so they could understand it and do it.

Gary,

You use your last two fingers on the right hand to depress the -S and -D; i.e., right ring finger hits the -S, and right pinkie hits the -D.

This is accomplished by "shifting" the hand to the right. The hand actually slightly rotates counter-clockwise as well.

Came up with a brief for acquit and its variants today. Bet Tami and others of you already have a good one:

KW-T acquit
KW-TS acquits
KW-TD acquitted
KW-GT acquitting
KW-LGTS acquittal
KW-LGTSDZ acquittals

(I used to write KWEULGTS for acquittal, but I didn't have the other variations)

Sorry to admit I've two stroked it now for, uh, almost 30 years. :)

I'm sure my boy already has it in one.

I'll put that on my list to learn when I get back to work. They're awesome! I love the -DZ for plural on the -ttles, etc. I started adding an asterisk on a lot of those for the plurals. I didn't think of the -DZ.

You'd be proud of Clay today, Mark. He's hooking up RT on a civil trial and providing daily roughs to the attorneys at the end of the day. I think it's going all week, but I don't know all the details.

How many newbies do that!!

Actually, before I started incorporating the Stenomaster theory into my own, the -ttle, -tal, -ddle, etc., were two strokes for me , so "acquittal" took three strokes.

Our family has been on a surf safari: San Diego, Doheny today, and San Onofre tomorrow, so I'm just catching up with all the posts here.

Wow, quite a bunch of Wallace & Gromit fans. I love it! I was wondering, what became of the penguin? Did any of you report his trial? Is he still in prison or out on probation? I hope he learned his lesson: Don't mess with an inventor and his dog.

Brenda, great story about your son and the Wensleydale. How cute is that?

Mark,
Great acquit and variant briefs. I love it when you find a good brief and it is not key intensive.

Tami, tell Clay what a great job he is doing. That is awesome!!

KW is request for me, so KW-T is request the. I'll work on the idea though. However, "acquit" doesn't come up too much in PI and domestic relations cases. hmm.
Christine, I'm with you completely on the "not key intensive" thing! I like my briefs lean and mean! ;)

Mark, love those briefs. I have been writing them in 2 strokes forever!

OMG, Tami, Clay is hooking up RT on a trial and providing roughs at the end of the day -- awesome! He sounds like one extremely confident and talented young man :)

The penguin has been appointed to... never mind.

Brenda,

KW is request for me also. I've been doing KW-I for acquit (adding on G/D/S) and KWIL/Z is acquittal/s. Might work for you too, should you ever need it!