And More FREE Roughs . . . Really?

[Quyen]

Okay, I'm just a TAD peeved, to say the least. On a job right now.  I just had an attorney say to me this morning, "I'll take a mini, electronic and regular.  I'll take a rough if there's no charge."

Me (almost speechless in disbelief): "Really? People are giving away free roughs?"

He: "Oh, yeah. It's getting really competitive out there. And we take the rough electronically only."

I asked him which firms were giving away free roughs. He said two firms that he uses all the time. (Please don't use any of the firms I work for -- EVER.) I asked for names.  He wouldn't say specifically, only that they are small firms in San Jose. Well, there goes your argument for small firms being so "ethical" and "righteous," giving away your hard work for free.  Then again he could be simply lying to me to see what I'd/we'd be willing to give him for FREE, if anything.

I mean, is this really what small firms are stooping to, to compete?  "So instead of little gifts, we'll work for you for free."  Sure, it's no sweat off the firm's back; it's at your (the reporter's) expense. I know none of the big, bad, dirty national firms that I work for is giving away free roughs.

Me: "Well, we don't give it away, so I suppose you don't want one."

He: "No."

Good! Then happy note-taking to you, sir.  I hope you brought some extra pens so you don't run out of ink.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather quit the profession the day I have to give away a free rough -- or any work product, for that matter.

I mean, wow!  Just WOW!!!  I have other choice words, but I'm sure they are entirely inappropriate for a semi-private forum.

[Carol A.]

I thought the agency charges for the pages of the miniscript in their bill to the attorney, but I could be wrong.  I know I don't get any extra for it.  I don't own an agency, so I don't know how they bill for services.  I know our clients get the free mini, but I thought others ordering copies pay for it.  This could have changed though over the past few years.  Again, I don't know since I don't own an agency.  I also couldn't imagine providing a rough for free or an expedite!  I think the insurance companies are killing us.  They don't want to pay for anything anymore, and so they dictate what we can charge, and some agencies are getting the work, and I'm sure banging on the copies to the other attorneys, but we are not seeing that money at all.  So sad nowadays!  I know we lost a big NYC client because apparently there was a bid, and my agency did not know about it  She was shocked and horrified when we lost that work.  That was a lot of good city work :(  A lot of good work here has to bid on, and it's hard for some small agencies to know what to bid.  I wish things would change.  I really do love my job so much, I hate to see what's happening.  I wish we could all get the same rates, copies, etc.  I'm sure attorneys are not giving away their work or advice for nothing, just like you said Debbie.

[Quyen]

Carol, I know some firms charge regular transcript page rates for the word index, something else reporters don't get paid for. Also, some firms will include the mini/condensed free of charge if the attorney has ordered/paid for a transcript copy.

[Carol A.]

Exactly!  I was waiting to hear some reporters say they get paid extra for that, and I was going to have another heart attack, haha.  I'm glad I'm not alone.  I have reporter friends here in New York, and I know they don't get extra for minis either.  I'm glad it's just not New York.  Every year we are getting screwed out of something!  I really do wish there was a standard page rate for all reporters, (a great page rate) no matter where you live, and that it went up yearly.   That would be awesome!  I also wish we got paid hourly on top of page rates, haha, but that will never happen here!

[Dean Morris]

Hi, I'll tread gingerly here.  This is not an attack, just a highlight of terminology.

Not getting paid for any service is bad.

When we do not get paid for the service in our city it is bad.

When someone in another city does not get paid for the service, it is also bad.

We should be sad that the "other city" is not getting paid for a service.  We should be glad when they do.

We should not be glad that they're, also, not getting paid for a service.

I'm certain it is not meant that one is "happy" the other person is not getting paid, but that's what it looks like on paper, in cyberspace, when one says "glad it's not just here."  It also shows a downtrodden acceptance of something, rather than the acknowledgment that, perhaps, one's area is incorrect in the way that payment to reporters is handled and that the city that does pay properly is, indeed, the correct way to pay reporters.

Again, not at all an attack.

[Carol A.]

You're right, I was just being selfish and didn't mean I was glad others were not being paid for something.  I do wish we all got paid for all our services.  I understand what you're saying, and I didn't mean it to be a "glad" someone else is not getting something either.  I hope that makes sense!  Not taken as an attack either.  Sometimes my thoughts come out wrong, but my intention is not meant to be mean :)

[Quyen]

I didn't take your comment to mean that or to be selfish, Carol.  I understood it in the sense that it's somewhat comforting or somewhat of a consolation to know that we are not alone in something, whatever that something may be.

[Carol A.]

Phewww, thanks!  It certainly wasn't meant to be mean at all.  It's exactly what you said, not to be alone, and as a consolation.  My wording just didn't come out right.   I just hope others understand it that way, too!   Thanks!

[Dean Morris]

Hi, Carol,

One can see from your tone of writing that you are a caring and nice person, not mean-spirited.

Everyone reads these forums, including agencies.  Just would not want agencies to feel that, "Well, the reporters have accepted that it's okay that we don't pay for this service because it's not paid for elsewhere."  It's not okay.  It is wrong, wrong. 

Personally,when I hear of a business practice like this occurring, I'm astonished, amazed, and horrified.  It is not acceptable, and I WISH it were not happening in my area.  I am sad it may be happening in theirs.  However, I would like to find a way to turn that around, and I will keep my eyes and ears open to do so.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

[Carol A.]

Thanks Deanna!  I will try to chose my words more carefully, I really don't want to offend reporters or give agencies a reason to do more harm than good.  Thanks again for understanding my intent.

[Kellie Zollars]

I agree with the wow, but I am not surprised.  It's the same argument we've been hearing about expedites.  Well, if the other side is paying for it to be rushed, why do I have to?    I will not provide free roughs.  I will not provide free realtime unless maybe I'm trying to hook them in to see how great it is - one free trial ;) 

Boy, things went downhill as I browsed through all the comments in the thread.  I didn't bother to read all the details, and I am not stating any opinions about anyone's comments.   I always read my comments after typing because, speaking from my own past experience, the written word can be so easily misconstrued into its worst possible meaning.     

Since I'm not mentioning rates I hope the following is okay:  Even today some of the firms I work for give me a copy of the attorneys' invoices with my 70% cut written in and that's what's reflected on my check.  That used to be how it was when I started working 30 years ago in San Francisco - except then my net was 75% of the O&1 and ALL copies.  I still get paid for all copies ordered, even if it means I don't get paid for copy orders until the reporting firm is paid in some instances.  

I still work in the Bay Area, and the percentage has gone down to 70%.  I also have a page rate for some firms I work for.  I trust these firms either because they got my name through referral or I know the owners to be professional and known for  being fair to the reporter.   

Now that we're better than we've ever been skill wise and technology wise, reporters are making less money.  The general downturn in the economy has made it even worse.  I had a horrible year as far as income last year.  It was probably my worst year I have had in the past 20 years (maybe even including two maternity leave years).   I have had to take jobs that I normally don't like to do and lose my not-quite-diva realtime reporter attitude.  I have always understood why some reporters have to take whatever is offered and why some unethical firms get away with what they do.  We are a two-income family, many are not.    I know there are many realtime reporters who have not really felt a difference, but at the DRA convention this past weekend many long-time professional reporters were saying that the past two years have been particularly bad.   The good news is most of them are now getting busy again. 

During a break at the DRA convention I was shocked when another realtime reporter I know with her own clients (aka very small firm) said she gave away free roughs in one case.   My friend and I told her she shouldn't give away her skills for free.   Her argument was she was already getting paid for an O&5 so didn't want to charge them too much, that it furthers the argument that court reporters charge way too much.  She also said that when she does this, she still pays her reporters their cut of the rough even if she doesn't charge the client.  

Guess what happened when that O&5 case was over and depos in a new case started?   Her client's paralegal expected to receive free roughs in that case too.  She then had to explain to the paralegal that if she provided roughs to her at no charge she would have to provide a free rough to the other side also, and she wouldn't be making any money.               

If you're a California reporter, join the Deposition Reporters Association.  It's a great organization fighting for all the right things for our profession in California and at the national level.  They had an amazing convention this year.  Check out their website too.  just Google their name to find it.  

Gotta go, I'm sounding like a Grandma Reporter and the good old days. 

Kellie

[Mary Ann Payonk]

Hi, Kellie!  A couple things.  First, once a reporter values something at zero, it's impossible to go back to charging appropriately for the product or service.  You can never go back.  Second, I'm in Washington, DC but couldn't wait to become certified, and realtime certified, in CA -- and join DRA.  They actively fight for, stand up for, reporters.  Very proud to be a member of DRA and encourage others to take a walk on the wild side ... join a state association other than your home state!  Last, when giving a demo onsite, give them realtime until the first break, then remove your netbooks so that when they come back, they're gone.  Oh, yeah.  They'll remember the good old days (before the break)!

M.A.

[Quyen]

"During a break at the DRA convention I was shocked when another realtime reporter I know with her own clients (aka very small firm) said she gave away free roughs in one case.   My friend and I told her she shouldn't give away her skills for free.   Her argument was she was already getting paid for an O&5 so didn't want to charge them too much, that it furthers the argument that court reporters charge way too much."

Thanks for sharing this story, Kellie. And to think that I'm labeled here as "emotional" and "naiive" [sic]. Along the same lines as what you've shared here, I'd like to share a snippet of a private discussion I had. I said the following:

"I've seen this issue of free roughs come up more and more often lately.  I find it a bit hard to believe that the attorneys all got together and said, "Let's tell the reporters we get free roughs from this, that and the other firm and see if they'll keep giving us free roughs."  SOMEONE . . . SOMEWHERE is doing it, whether it be solo reporters trying to get more business for themselves or small firms or big firms, and the ones who are doing it will NEVER admit it."

Although I was wrong about never admitting it.

I've always felt that when reporters are willing to give work product away for free or at a price well less than common practice within the industry, that that is a reflection of self-worth. But . . . that's just me.